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Hi guys,

I'm in the process of trying to formulate a plan for a garden layout and I've fallen for the idea of doing it in oo gauge. I've spent a while browsing this forum and picked up a lot of great tips. I was really into railway modelling as a kid but have been away from the scene for many years. The advantage this gives me is that I'm not stuck with any legacy equipment and can start from.a clean slate. That said I've used the planning as an excuse to build a small trainset circle layout for my 2 year old wit a couple of second hand locos.

So far I've come up with the following wish list:

Ability to run long trains

A continuous run

as close to ground level.level.as possible

notwithstanding the above at least one viaduct!

I'll mainly be running diesel locomotives but there is going to be no pretence of a prototype so it will be a case of running what I like and anything goes.

I'm a bit of an electronics geek and the idea of spending hours chasing wiring faults does not appeal so I'm planning on using some kind of battery radio control.

I've spent a few hours pacing the garden and using a couple of simple surveying apps to get an idea of the lay of the land.

Unfortunately I do have an appreciable slope and not only that but it's in the "wrong" direction with the house patio and garage at the low end of the slope.

I know that ideally any gradient should be kept to a minimum but what sort of inclines are you.guys using successfully? Curves can afford to.be sweeping which should help.......a very non scientific test using a block of wood under one end of the trainset board showed that a 5 degree slope was achievable as long as the loco has traction tyres fitted......that said there is a lot of difference between an inside quick test and reliable outdoor operation. I reckon I can get to a 3 degree gradient max without too much trouble but will this be ok?

The other potential problem is maintaining access to the top of the garden for the lawnmower and a desire not to have a high level viaduct or similar all the way across the back of the house.

worst case is that I have to abandon the idea of using the back garden and use the front which is nice and level.....iI'm not keen on this though for a number of reasons not least that we don't tend to spend much time in the front garden and the idea is to have a moving backdrop to bbqs etc in the summer.

I've taken loads of photos but I need to resize them to upload so ill get round to it later (I'm posting using my phone which is my excuse for the multiple typos!) as well as trying to draw a sketch map so you can under stand what I'm waffling about!.

Any advice or pointers greatfuly received

Cheers

Gareth

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Your wish list sounds very similar to my own!

Starting from scratch is an advantage and the modern diesel loco's are of excellent quality and performance. They're a bit pricier than they were two or three years ago mind you and the rolling stock has likewise seen a hefty price hike over recent months. One of my favourite trains has always been a realistic rake of MGR wagons (though I'm partial to any type of long coal train) and over an extended period of time I was fortunate to have been able to acquire two sets of the latest Hornby wagons at an average price of around £8-£10 each. That's roughly £300 per complete set without the cost of a loco. Today these same wagons retail new for more than £20 each making that same set cost more than £720!

On the subject of wiring it always pays to keep it simple. I've also learned (but not yet implemented) that it's a good idea to wire your layout in isolated sections so that tracing a short circuit is made easier. But saying that, wiring an outdoor layout can be pretty simple and uncomplicated - it all depends just how far you want to go with it.

Gradients are certainly best avoided whenever possible but at least you'll have fewer problems with diesel loco's than with many of the steam outline models. I don't have any figures to offer regarding maximum gradients as I've never really done any measured experiments although I've read that around 1:50 might be the upper limit. It all depends on the type of loco and the trailing load but I would recommend you do some testing before constructing any bases. There's also the possibility of adding additional weight to your locos to aid performance. It's surprising the difference just a few additional grams can make.

My garden has a slope too although in my case it slopes down away from the house. The elevated section (not yet fully completed) is thus not so prominent as it would be if the slope were the other way round.

A viaduct is a must, especially for a layout based in Scotland! I can highly recommend the aerated block method should that be suitable for your needs. I have had no problems whatsoever with mine since they were built and they are beginning to weather really well now.

Battery radio control I have no experience of at all although it does seem to be generating interest in more and more quarters these days.

Look forward to seeing some photos of the proposed site.

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Mick,

Thanks for the welcome and the help with registering......yyou are not wrong about the prices! As I said I've been out of model railways for a long time but, having seen the prices of other hobby electronics such as rc aircraft etc cocome.down markedly in price, I had assumed that a similar thing would have happened to trains......what a shock I got! I love the idea of dcc sound but the prices are obscene.

Currently I'm relying on second hand ebay lima stuff which, while not as good as the new products, will still look good on the line. (They also have the advantage of lots of Internal space to fill with electronics! Total cost of 2 locomotives and an 8 coach rake is less than £100 so I really can't complain.

I really wish I had the house at the high end of the garden.....it would make life a lot easier.....I've drawn a (very!) Rough sketch and hopefully uploaded it.....we will see!

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....One question I do have for you is on track beds.....In your thread you mention the track is fixed directly to the viaduct blocks......iis there any reason this wouldn't work throughout.....it rather not have wood rot added to the list of problems.....

I've hinted at that possibility in another of my recent posts somewhere else on the forum so yes, I do believe that would be possible and perhaps preferable to using a wooden base, especially when the track is at or close to ground level. For elevated track sections it's much easier to keep the wooden bases protected from extreme wet and damp so there should be far fewer problems. I will be using plywood as the base for my elevated section along the bottom of the garden but should I ever have to replace my already completed ground level section then I would certainly be looking at a masonry type base next time.

I've never owned any Lima loco's of my own although I have disposed of a small number recently from another collection. I had considered keeping them myself but after testing them I found their overall performance disappointing compared to my Hornby and Bachmann models even though, as you rightly say, they do still look very nice. Do you plan to retain the original motors or do you have plans to replace them?

Looking at the diagram in your last post, does that mean the highest part of your garden is 1.4 metres above the patio level? I also see a garage close at hand - are there plans for the track to enter there?

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Mick,

Yes ideally the garage does feature in the plans, I have taken all heights relative to ground level at this point. The top corner is 1.4m above this and the patio is approx 0.5m below. (Although I don't intend track below the datum level.

ideally i would have an out and back run from the garage via points a and b.....I then need to figure out how to complete the loop....at its simplest I can just have a return loop at the garage but it would be great if I could fit in another out and back across the patio (this would be where the viaduct comes in!) Problems inherant in this are the crossing of the path at ground level and negotiations with management about the amount of remodelling of the rockery that will be permitted!

Don't know about the lima motors yet....I'll almost certainly change at least one as a comparison to see what difference they make. I love the look of the bachmann locos but as railways are just one of a number of hobbies I can't justify the difference in cost just yet and would rather keep the budget for civil engineering.....I also would be very loathed to let my 2 year old play with them while the lima stuff is more resilient. That said once the railway is in situ and the boy is a year or so older then i fully expect to splash out on some nicer stock.. (I would love a sound equipped deltic thrashing round the patio with 10 coaches on the hook)

Sinice the last post the loco count has In creased by 1......ive acquired a modified 2 motor lima deltic that needs some tlc....This is an ideal test bed for the radio control system as it's already been hacked about.....might even take the prototype theme further and build a dapol dp1 body for it!

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Gareth,

Re foundations for track.

I've used most ideas thrown up on the forum:3/4 inch timber, plywood, decking etc and all have had to be replaced at some stage.

A few months back I changed the front of the layout (from the viaduct to the high level girder bridge) cementing in types of breeze blocks. I've done this before but always topped off with decking. This time I've gone with just the cement blocks and pinned track directly onto them. Some pins/nails will hold, others break off and I've also used super glue (sparingly) in various places.

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As promised some pictures.......Please excuse the state of the garden at present......clearly there is potential to do a lot but I am worried about the slope. I can always raise the track exiting the garage to reduce the gradient but this then creates a barrier to accessing the garden if I wanted to run past the patio. The simplest solution would be to only have the "top loop" but then most of the line would be invisible from the patio.....hope this gives an idea of what I'm dealing with.

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Gareth...Don't think plan B will work.

If you don't socialise that much in the front garden it defeats the object of sitting down and watching trains go by... cup of tea in hand.

Also,sadly we have to be aware of security problems.Your front garden does look a little exposed, (but I'm only going off what I can see in the photos.)

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Sadly I think you are right about the front garden on all counts.....its a shame as I really like the front but it's usefulness is very limited considering the space available. Maybe I should take up modelling the snowdon mountain railway!

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I think you will need to dig and fill. It's not easy to say from photos and pictures. In my mind, I would lose the slabbed path from the steps. You need to mark out your intended track plan by using long straight edges, and a string compass, you can mark the grass with a cheap aerosol, or even sand. Starting from your datum, place leveled pegs into the ground at your desired track height and gradient. By the time you get to your high spot, you will see what needs removing. That can then be used to fill in where your path is, or to create embankments where needed or just lost in low spots. Then I would remove the steps and start again, with the top step being a removable slab over your track as done in another place here. Mick I think, or it may have been Grockle. Plenty of thought and surveying should show the way.

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Hi Gareth and welcome to the forum.

I can see 2, possibly 3, options here - one of which you have already said is not preferred :?

1) Ground level near the top, with a long viaduct / high level line across the garden at the lower section,

2) As above, but if you use blocks for the base, back fill up against these with soil, like Mick did on the original Selby Garden Railway. Lift out bridge across the pathway. Or try the trough system that ElectricFox is using..

3) Biggest project - level the garden up, by digging out at the top and moving to the bottom to raise the level or dig out the top, to create a sort of sunken garden..... You wont probably see any trains running this year, but your kids would love to see machinery in use!!! :lol:

One final thought. Forget crossing the line of the path at the bottom of the slope. Have a big U shape, going under the path, near the top. Put some of the line in cuttings, then the trains will disappear on one side of the garden and re-appear on the other, before returning around a dumbell and back under the path.

Iain

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Roddy and Iain,

Thanks again for the welcome.....yes a certain amount of excavation is going to be inevitable but the moment I need a mini digger I suspect I will lose any management approval I may have gained! I like the idea of the u shape line....I'll go and have a look......The path doesn't currently do very much so I'm not averse to moving it...The only limit here is that I need access for the lawnmower to both parts of the lawn currently via the corner of the patio furthest from the garage......changing the current steps to a slope may be the excuse I need to build a tunnel! Looking forward to getting my hands on this Deltic so I can stuff it with a prototype control system ready for a run up the garden path when the weather improves.

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As Roddy already says, it's not easy getting the whole picture from photographs, but from what I can see it's not so bad as I was initially expecting. If you've decided to utilise the garage then from the photos you've attached it looks like the base of the garage building is below the ground to the rear of it. From the rear of the garage I assume that the garden rises up to the far boundary, although it looks pretty level in the photos. If you settle on a track level somewhere towards the highest point of the garden and maintain that height throughout in order to avoid any gradients, then that should give you a nice working height within the garage. Again, the photos may be slightly deceiving, but it appears that if you were to restrict the layout to the top of the garden then that would reduce any need to have an elevated section close the the house. Your garden needs to be accessible - having to step over elevated tracks or carry lawnmowers over viaducts is okay for a short while but it soon becomes more than a little inconvenient. Your garden looks a decent size but there's no need to use all of it. Building an outdoor layout takes a good deal of time and our summers are not always kind to us so there's often a lot to cram in to a relatively short period of time. From what you've already said about your preference for long trains and diesel loco's then you're going to need a circular tail-chaser type design so it's going to be important that you can achieve that quickly in order to get things up and running.

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Took advantage of an early finish from work and a rare spot of nice weather to take a fresh look following the suggestions and comments on here......wwhat's more Mrs ep declared herself happy to have a long raised section as long as I sort the borders and the rest of the garden at the same time.....fair enough! Having been given "planning permission" to remodel the steps I realised I was missing a couple of obvious points. ...first the majority of the slope is at the top of the garden and that, if the only reason to avoid corner c was to maintain lawnmower access, I was missing a trick!

The current plan has the line exiting the garage at about breeze block viaduct height to corner a and then to the top of the current path by which time it will be in a shallow cutting and will go under the path in a short tunnel. From here the line will stay at close to ground level cutting the corner at b and avoiding the worst of the elevation change. From here it will slowly gain elevation down to the rockery area where permission has been given to build a high level station and return loop. This will block of the current mower access which is why I hadn't initially though about it but if I take out the steps and replace with a slope then that is no longer a problem.

There are still loads of details to work out and negotiations over the extent of pruning of the rockery flowerbed are ongoing but an idea is now coming together helped enormously by the encouragement shown on here for which I am very grateful.

Mick is right about the garage being lower than the garden so external exit height of 18 inches or so will equate to about 3 to 4 foot high on the inside which is ideal for a storage shelf. That is a lot of track and I'm very conscious that it's too much to attempt in 1 go so first stage is probably going to be an out and back run to the top of the path to get trains running and keep motivation levels up.

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Made it outside again over the weekend to do some gradient trials.....Although a shortage of track meant that trials were light loco only they were certainly very encouraging with all the standard locos coping with a 5 degree (1 in 12) gradient which is the maximum I need. To see how far I could go I did some further trials with ever steeper slopes and, as I suspected, the number and condition of traction tyres makes a huge difference. The culmination of the tests was a short run at 15 degrees (1 in 4!) The class 50 with no traction tyres just slid down the track but the twin motor deltic pulled away with no problems at all! This was an extreme test and I'm now confident that what I want to do is achievable . If I miss out the top corner I can keep to 2 degree slopes throughout and still keep a sensible level at the garage.

I have taken a short video of the trials but haven't figured out how to upload it.......I'll try again later it's quite impressive!

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