Worsley Dale Garden Railway

[chris]

Do your dropper wires need to be that heavy? Each length of rail has its own feed so a dropper will only be feeding one loco a time (unless you doublehead). Your stock is modern so at most you're loco will be pulling 0.5amp so there no problem with power and your droppers are less than 10cm long so voltage drop is insignificant.

In door layouts take a belt and braces approach to these things, but there droppers are completely hidden. I think you could go a lot lighter if there is an area where you want to reduce the visual intrusion.

I've been using 5 amp fuse wire to bond my joins, they are hardily noticeable and I haven'y had a problem yet.

[george356]

Wot he said!!

I have used 7/02 for my droppers. When you think about it, there is really no difference to using the same gauge wire to bond track. The main brunt of the current will be carried by the bus. Also, look at the gauge of wire used by decoders, they are carrying the current from the track to the decoder, and from the decoder to the motor. When was the last time you had a decoder wire blow?

[mick]

Hmmmh...that's what I was hoping to hear before I started adding the wiring. I've got a stash of 7 strand 0.2mm that I could have used and it would have been much less prominent which is why I asked the question in the Electrics and Wiring section. Now do I leave things as they are or do I start afresh with the droppers? I'd better go back outside and have a look and think about it.

Just been adding some packing in the form of narrow strips of unused rubber pond liner around the curve section to give that bit of 'cant'. Looks okay, but now what about the wiring.....

[traingeekboy]

I'd go for lighter droppers. I'd use black coated wire for all so it's not visible. Color coding is good, but if the wires are visible and you know the outside wire is one line and the inside is the other, why bother? Well that's the plan for my layout anyway.

[mick]

 

traingeekboy said:

I'd go for lighter droppers. I'd use black coated wire for all so it's not visible..

That's exactly what I was going to do in the first place!

I'm undecided whether to replace the existing droppers or just leave them as they are. I've convinced myself that they're not too prominent and with a bit of weathering they should all but fade into the scenery but would I regret not ripping them out later? I'm going to sleep on this one.

I've got one remaining length of concrete sleepered track to alter and then all the track that's currently laid will have had the sleepers eased outwards. I've made my finger ends sore sliding the sleepers along. I think I've cut and moved approx 2,000 sleepers over the past couple of days but I feel better for having done so. Now it's time to get things moving.

[mick]

I've managed to complete the easing of the gap between sleepers on the final length of track so that's one task out of the way for tomorrow.

I mentioned earlier that I've made an attempt to introduce some cant on the outside line of the curve ahead of the viaduct using some left over rubber pond liner. The liner has a thickness of 1mm and has proved to be just the right size for my needs. The liner was cut into narrow strips with a stanley knife and placed beneath the track just inside the outer edge of the sleepers. Here's a couple of photos showing how a loco looks on the curve now.

That's as much 'cant' as I need. I want to get the inner line wired tomorrow and then do the same with the rubber liner. I can then begin tidying the whole thing up and contemplating ballasting. And yes, I've got that flower border seen in the photos to dig over.

ba14eagle said:

...Personally, after my experience with the current layout, I wouldnt bother with ballast in the future...

I hear you Iain but I've set my heart on ballasted tracks for the most visible sections and I've just got to give it a go. You're welcome to remind me of your advice should I fail miserably.

[fungus]

The cant looks good. 1mm is about right.

[fungus]

Ba14eagle's warnings are valid for "the wrong kind of ballast". However, in my experience you won't have a problem if you use real stone ballast, apply it carefully and sparingly, use a suficient quantity of a proven adhesive material to hold it in place, and keep it away from the critical parts of any turnouts. And if done well, it does greatly improve the appearance.

[mick]

 

fungus said:

...However, in my experience you won't have a problem if you use real stone ballast...

Well I've got some of that so thanks for the encouragement Ian. I would have been distraught after chopping and fiddling with all those sleepers to learn that ballasting was a no go. I really need the ballast now to hold all the sleepers firmly in place. Do you ever run a finger along the sleepers like you'd do with the keys on a piano? Well I do and after spending an age carefully aligning the chopped sleepers into something resembling scale distance apart, to forget yourself for one moment and suddenly run a finger along them is extremely annoying to say the least. Oh yes, I've done it.

So I'm thinking floor polish as the ballast fixative which appears to be the easier to apply but I do also think that exterior varnish would prove a success. I would guess that the varnish may need thinning slightly prior to application but it's certainly worthy of some testing.

[mick]

It feels like it's been quite a productive day. Apart from mowing the lawn which was well overdue, I've actually cracked on with the layout too. Here's what I've been up to.

I decided to retain the droppers I had already soldered in place to the outer line and discard the blue ones I had started fixing to the inner circuit. For the inner circuit I have now added smaller dropper wires with a black coating. There still looks to be a lot of wires but I'm actually quite pleased with this and when the tracks are ballasted it'll be hardly noticeable. Don't worry about the gaps and irregular spacing of the sleepers, they move about easily at the moment but it will all be sorted just before ballast is applied. Each section of track is now wired directly to the bus wires and although the photo may appear to show an abundance of wires to the tracks you'll notice that the lower 2 pairs straddle a rail join so the following rail join requires no wires at all.

I've also made a start on ballasting using Gaugemaster ballast. I ordered both medium and fine grades in order to choose which was most suitable but I thought the medium was just a bit too large and the fine a bit too small so in order not to have any wastage I mixed the two grades together. I have completed one section of rail using Astonish floor polish as a fixative and will see how it comes out. I must add that the floor polish flows very easily indeed. The moment you drop a spot onto the ballast it immediately soaks in and the more drops you add you can actually see the polish flowing through ballast in adjacent sleepers. No need for any drops of washing up liquid with this stuff!

The ballast is remarkably similar in size and colour to the stone particles embedded in the roofing felt. In the photo below, the wooden sleeper track has been ballasted on all but the outer sleeper edge while the concrete sleeper track has had ballast added only between the rails and will be finished later.

I've also had a loco running backwards and forwards on each line today in order to test everything out. Apart from 37417 there's also been 57604 Pendennis Castle and so here's a couple of photos of her. Both photos show Pendennis Castle standing on the previously ballasted length of track but on the second of the 2 photos notice how, just in front of the loco, light can shine beneath the rails now that the plastic webbing between the sleepers has been removed. I really like that effect.

[george356]

I like that ballast effect Mick, looks really good.

I have been told that you can actually buy the bags of mineral that they use on roofing felt. It's sold so that repairs can be made using adhesive/bitumen and blended in with the original. I am going to see if I can find some to try out.

[doublecee]

That ballasting looks ace!

[fungus]

 

mick said:

So I'm thinking floor polish as the ballast fixative which appears to be the easier to apply but I do also think that exterior varnish would prove a success. I would guess that the varnish may need thinning slightly prior to application but it's certainly worthy of some testing.

I'll be interested to hear what results you get if you try varnish. Check the ingredients before you buy - the only exterior varnish in our local Robert Dyas contained MEK, a plastic solvent. We've lost our local diy shop, and we're away for a while, so I'm unlikely to get a chance to try it in the next few weeks.

[mick]

 

fungus said:

...Check the ingredients before you buy - the only exterior varnish in our local Robert Dyas contained MEK, a plastic solvent...

I never even thought of anything like that - good job I didn't just decide to go ahead with exterior varnish then - especially after all my sleeper chopping! Would be great to sit there and watch them all melt away

I have a tin of exterior varnish out in the shed so I'll check on the ingredients tomorrow just to be sure. The more I think about it the more I think we should run some extensive tests for suitable fixatives for exterior ballasting although I suspect that success is in part down to the application of the ballast and the fixative itself. Even the baseboard covering needs taking into account. There's probably not going to be one solution for all.

[traingeekboy]

I have to agree with everyone else. The ballast really looks good. It makes the trackbed seem real.

A while back I pestered woody about his fully sceniced outdoor layout's ballast and scenery bonding.

(Blatant plug for those who haven't seen woody's layout: http://freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=1222&forum_id=17&page=93" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Woody uses water proof Tight Bond wood glue by 3m. Maybe you have something comparable in your neck of the woods. I am using it to bond my wood bridge together. I assume he uses water to dilute it before dripping it onto his ballast.

[mick]

I've just uploaded the following photo without realising it's similar to the one I posted yesterday and from what I can remember I don't think this part of the track has been touched since then so it's very much the same thing from the same viewpoint. However, whilst there is still work to be done on this section it does give a closer view of the track to show the on-going effects of the ballasting.

With the ballast gradually being added the track bed is now starting to look like I'd hoped it would; the wooden sleeper track being especially pleasing. The concrete sleepers don't look right. The sleepers themselves appear too thin, or perhaps it's because they are too long that they just look thinner than they should. Still, I think once they've weathered they should be okay. It's good to see the larger picture and notice the real stone scattered about! Now it's down to the weather and to see if the polish can stand up to whatever is thrown it's way.

While I was outside earlier I was looking at the track wiring where it connects to the bus wire. In the photographs I've uploaded showing the wiring to the track, I've commented on what at first seems to be a large number of wires. Only now have I realised that apart from the necessary 2 bus wires running down each side of the layout, wiring directly to a bus requires less wired connections to the track than bonding each individual rail joint does. When bonding a rail join you require 2 soldered connections, one to each side of the joint, using one single length of wire. If after making that connection you were to cut that wire at it's mid point and solder the 2 cut ends to a bus wire you can then miss out the next rail join completely. I think using a bus wire outdoors and connecting each section of track to it is certainly worthy of consideration.

[george356]

 

Mick said:

While I was outside earlier I was looking at the track wiring where it connects to the bus wire. In the photographs I've uploaded showing the wiring to the track, I've commented on what at first seems to be a large number of wires. Only now have I realised that apart from the necessary 2 bus wires running down each side of the layout, wiring directly to a bus requires less wired connections to the track than bonding each individual rail joint does. When bonding a rail join you require 2 soldered connections, one to each side of the joint, using one single length of wire. If after making that connection you were to cut that wire at it's mid point and solder the 2 cut ends to a bus wire you can then miss out the next rail join completely. I think using a bus wire outdoors and connecting each section of track to it is certainly worthy of consideration.

That was my thinking exactly, Mick. the fewer soldered joints the better, was my thoughts. Rail joiners revert to their intended use, as a mechanical connection between rail ends and not an electrical connection too.

[traingeekboy]

It looks really good. The spacing on the ties/sleepers adds a nice touch.

As an afterthought, the blue and red insulation on your busses will fade with time. They probably won't look so garish with a years weathering.

[ba14eagle]

Mick

Quote

When bonding a rail join you require 2 soldered connections, one to each side of the joint, using one single length of wire. If after making that connection you were to cut that wire at it's mid point and solder the 2 cut ends to a bus wire you can then miss out the next rail join completely

If I understand you correctly, I twigged this idea too. I still bonded each track joint, as a buss wire didnt seem convenient in an already established garden. The rail bonds use a piece of copper wire that has a u shape bent into it. Where I have an electrical feed to the track, this has been soldered onto the U shape, rather than the rail itself. I also did this when jumpering across each of the loops and sidings. The bonding track thread in the electrics & wiring section has a picture, that I posted, of this method.

[mick]

 

ba14eagle said:

...If I understand you correctly, I twigged this idea too. ...The bonding track thread in the electrics & wiring section has a picture, that I posted, of this method.

You've used a combination of the two methods Iain, a bonding wire across the join in addition to a power feed. I'm just using a power feed to each rail which in effect also acts as a bonding wire.

This photo was taken this afternoon. There is a brown bus wire seen running down the right hand edge of the track base and the blue can just be seen running down the left side. For the sake of clarity, ignore the 3 pairs of blue and brown droppers which feed the left hand track. You're left with 2 pairs of black wires, one in the immediate foreground and one about 2 feet from the end of the line. Both these pairs of black wires straddle a rail join, in effect acting as a bonding wire, but instead of being fastened/soldered together as one single wire, they are connected directly to the power bus. In between these 2 pairs of wires is another rail join (approx mid way between the first 2 house bricks) but this doesn't need any wires or bonding wires adding, the 2 pairs of black wires mentioned at top and bottom of the photo supply power to all the sections of track.

It's all down to personal choice and I only have experience of using bonding wires up to now so I can't say which is the better or most reliable method. I do feel the bus wire has advantages, one being that additional feeds can be taken from it easily. So long as the bus wire itself doesn't fail then it should be just fine.