laurie Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 Salutations one and all, The planets have finally aligned to allow a first foray into outdoor railways so I'd like to introduce myself. I have been into trains and model railways since the mid 1980's however I have never progressed far beyond ovals of track on the floor . in adult hood the intersection of money, time and motivation was rarely achieved although I got as far as part building a small station layout with copper clad points. Finally with the children mostly raised and with my sons infectious enthusiasm helping I am finally getting off my behind. The overall scheme will be a single track line through a flower bed with a small station at each end, whilst a line circling the garden would be nice, the railway has to fit in with the other uses of the space, e.g. drying washing, greyhound zoomies, storage for bicycles and the annual potted plant plant explosion. Having said that I have couple of ideas for extensions. The railway will be approximately 75 cm off the ground, to clear the raised bed, and In lieu of timber I plan to use the recycled plastic members from Filcris, although this is more expensive than wood, the idea of not having to worry about rot is very appealing. Control will be analogue DC initially but I am fascinated with radio remote control although that will come with a steep learning curve. I have realised just how much I don't know about running out doors and I was delighted to find some fellow travellers, oo outdoors is definitely a niche within niche so it will be nice to have somewhere to ask scale specific questions. all the best Laurie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Mills Junction Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Welcome to the forum. I like the name of your railway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ba14eagle Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Welcome to the forum. I have experience of using plastics outdoors for a railway - I have also read plenty of horror stories about using Filcris products! My apologies. All I would say is, look very carefully into the expansion / contraction properties of any plastic product you plan to use. For larger scales such as G scale / Gauge 1, this may not be such a problem, but in O gauge and smaller, you need to be careful. The smaller the pieces of plastic you use, the better from my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virginia Rail Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Hi Laurie May I put in a good word for the use of plastic. I used foam PVC, which comes in 5mm thick sheet, as a track base. I laid this directly onto the garden soil, or on bricks, and I have never found expansion to be a problem since the plastic is not restrained. It is easy to work with, and takes brass track pins. It has lasted ten years with no sign of embrittlement or other degradation, though I take it up for the winters. I started with analogue DC, but found that the track could not be kept clean enough, so I opted for battery power and radio control. I think there are some pictures on this site under Virginia Rail. Good luck with your project. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 (edited) On 22/08/2021 at 21:03, ba14eagle said: I have also read plenty of horror stories about using Filcris products! My apologies. Aargh! I had already committed my self and bought some which arrives tomorrow! Thanks for the warning anyway, forewarned is forearmed. I'm keen on the maintenance free appeal of plastic, hopefully with some thought before construction I can overcome any expansion problem. Is it longitudinal expansion that is the problem? If so then presumably limiting the the length of these members should help, it means more joints in the sub-structure, but that is better than buckled track. I'm going to have to deviate from Filcris's prescribed construction method anyway as i am not working in an empty space so its all a big experiment. thanks Laurie Edited August 24, 2021 by laurie formatting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 On 22/08/2021 at 21:48, Virginia Rail said: Hi Laurie May I put in a good word for the use of plastic. I used foam PVC, which comes in 5mm thick sheet, as a track base. I laid this directly onto the garden soil, or on bricks, and I have never found expansion to be a problem since the plastic is not restrained. It is easy to work with, and takes brass track pins. It has lasted ten years with no sign of embrittlement or other degradation, though I take it up for the winters. I started with analogue DC, but found that the track could not be kept clean enough, so I opted for battery power and radio control. I think there are some pictures on this site under Virginia Rail. Good luck with your project. Peter Hi Peter, Thanks for your encouragement, but after reading the thread on your layout, which looks lovely by the way, I am now expecting the dark brown plastic I've bought to be a complete disaster! It all depends on whether it distorts when it heats up or just expands. Oh well, you live and learn and if it doesn't work it will teach me to do my research first! thanks Laurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 Contacted Filcris today to find out what the coefficient of expansion for the plastic is and it is 1.5mm / m / degree C. This is 10x that of nickel silver rail (0.016mm/m/deg C - source 'Theq'). So whilst, over a -10C to 30C worst case operating range, a metre of track would change by 0.6mm an equivalent length of the plastic base will expand by 6mm/m. It occurs to me though that the worst case temperature operating range is air temperature and that after baking in the summer sun for a few hours the dark plastic could well be hotter than 30C. I will have to investigate once the plastic arrives. It seems there are two problems to solve: 1. Constructing the base to account for its own expansion and contraction. As suggested elsewhere on the forum this will mean limiting the length of any piece of plastic used in the road bed to as short as reasonably practical. 2. Fixing the track to the road bed in such a way that it has one fixed point only with other points held down but allowed to slide longitudinally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddles Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 16 hours ago, laurie said: Contacted Filcris today to find out what the coefficient of expansion for the plastic is and it is 1.5mm / m / degree C. This is 10x that of nickel silver rail (0.016mm/m/deg C - source 'Theq'). So whilst, over a -10C to 30C worst case operating range, a metre of track would change by 0.6mm an equivalent length of the plastic base will expand by 6mm/m. I have hesitated to post this, and still await being shot down in flames, but from the figures you have quoted, is not the coefficient of expansion for the plastic 100 times greater than that of nickel silver rail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 26, 2021 Author Share Posted August 26, 2021 6 minutes ago, Riddles said: I have hesitated to post this, and still await being shot down in flames, but from the figures you have quoted, is not the coefficient of expansion for the plastic 100 times greater than that of nickel silver rail? Hi Riddles, You are quite correct! The actual coefficient should be 0.15mm/m/C. Unfortunately it is still a 6mm expansion over 40C At least it is not a 60mm expansion, I think it would definitely be unusable then thanks for spotting that. Laurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddles Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 Cheers. Thanks for clarifying that. It seems the safest trackbed is Rubbercrete or light thermal blocks, both methods needing a lot of planning and "civil engineering". Good luck with your 00 garden railway and enjoy it, whichever way you go. Riddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Mills Junction Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 At 75cm above the ground, you are quite high, a good height for working though. Depending on how wide the members are, you might need to think about fencing or something to keep the trains from having a tumble in the event of derailment. I'm using Hornby trackside fencing because it is cheap and easily assembled or put away. Only instead of plugging the supports into the track I'm screwing them on and cutting the track inserts back, this way the track can expand freely but is unable to move laterally. On the expansion side, if you are using flexitrack then it should be fine to bridge expansion gaps of less than 1cm without problems. Given it might be unlikely that you'll be out running trains when its -10 then your gap will be small when you are operating trains. I'm not sure how it fits together but I would imagine that two 70cm high posts would be able to take up 6mm of expansion between them, one for Filcris to answer I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ba14eagle Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 On 24/08/2021 at 16:01, laurie said: Aargh! I had already committed my self and bought some which arrives tomorrow! Thanks for the warning anyway, forewarned is forearmed. I'm keen on the maintenance free appeal of plastic, hopefully with some thought before construction I can overcome any expansion problem. Is it longitudinal expansion that is the problem? If so then presumably limiting the the length of these members should help, it means more joints in the sub-structure, but that is better than buckled track. I'm going to have to deviate from Filcris's prescribed construction method anyway as i am not working in an empty space so its all a big experiment. thanks Laurie Longitudinal expansion. I think the secret with the track is to use screw / pin holes that are slightly bigger than the screws / pins. Leave some gaps in the rail at the fishplates, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 27, 2021 Author Share Posted August 27, 2021 18 hours ago, Riddles said: Cheers. Thanks for clarifying that. It seems the safest trackbed is Rubbercrete or light thermal blocks, both methods needing a lot of planning and "civil engineering". Good luck with your 00 garden railway and enjoy it, whichever way you go. Riddles Having committed myself it would be a shame at least not to have a go with the stuff, if it doesn't work out there are other methods and it all sounds like fun. I think I may be able to manage the expansion on straights and easy curves, not sure about the necessary tight ~3ft, 90 degree curve I need to make at one end though, the plastic will expand in all directions so it is not so easy to envisage. thanks Laurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 27, 2021 Author Share Posted August 27, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Clay Mills Junction said: At 75cm above the ground, you are quite high, a good height for working though. Depending on how wide the members are, you might need to think about fencing or something to keep the trains from having a tumble in the event of derailment. I'm using Hornby trackside fencing because it is cheap and easily assembled or put away. Only instead of plugging the supports into the track I'm screwing them on and cutting the track inserts back, this way the track can expand freely but is unable to move laterally. On the expansion side, if you are using flexitrack then it should be fine to bridge expansion gaps of less than 1cm without problems. Given it might be unlikely that you'll be out running trains when its -10 then your gap will be small when you are operating trains. I'm not sure how it fits together but I would imagine that two 70cm high posts would be able to take up 6mm of expansion between them, one for Filcris to answer I suppose. I'm going to mock up a couple of sections at different heights so all the stakeholders can attend an "optioneering workshop"., now thinking of 60cm and 30cm high as potential options. I'd prefer the higher one as at the lower height the railway would disapear for a long stretch behind the tomato jungle every summer. Yes, I didn't plan on operating at the extreme ends of the temperature range! So as long as I can work out how to attach the track to the road bed so that the expansion of the latter doesn't cause buckling or disconnection at likely temperature extremes I'll be delighted. We are more likely to get to the top end of the range especially as the plastic is dark and I expect it to be hotter than the air temperature when there is lots of sun. Has your line side fencing been used in anger yet? My recollection of the Hornby fencing was that it was quite brittle, mind you that was 80s vintage stuff so it could be better now. thanks Laurie Edited August 27, 2021 by laurie spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted August 27, 2021 Author Share Posted August 27, 2021 16 hours ago, ba14eagle said: Longitudinal expansion. I think the secret with the track is to use screw / pin holes that are slightly bigger than the screws / pins. Leave some gaps in the rail at the fishplates, obviously. Hi, I still haven't worked out how to accommodate the longitudinal expansion of the track base. If I limit road bed sections to 50 cm then the expansion range would be 3mm and I'd probably want to leave that sort of gap at mid range temperatures (as I expect the upper end of the range to be higher when it bakes in the sun). With normal track joints I think I would want to spread that over at least 3 joints (1mm each) which implies 3 pieces of track on each 50cm board. an 18yd panel would be 216mm so each of my pieces would be shorter even than this! Thats alot of joints over even the relatively short length of line I am building. If I want to have fewer track joints and also longer base sections I would have to make prototypical expansion joints! These might be tricky to make as it would involve filing rails exactly down the middle so that two halves could overlap and fit within a rail joiner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 As I see it, you can either persevere and build with a known expansion problem, or change your plan and follow the proven methods on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Mills Junction Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 5 hours ago, laurie said: Hi, I still haven't worked out how to accommodate the longitudinal expansion of the track base. That all sounds a lot of work. Generally, you want to reduce the number of track joins rather than increase them. I've never heard of anybody doing the kind of join you are proposing before. Have you got a track plan you can show us? Are you going to use the ladder construction method shown on the Filcris website? If that is the case the problem is slightly different to what I thought it was. Usually we think of high temperatures as being the cause of rail buckling but in your case it is likely to be really cold temperatures. I take it tracklaying in the middle of the coldest night of the year isn't in the plan.🤣 Your gaps are going to be widest when you are using the railway, it would be like your rolling stock going through massive potholes all the time. (Sorry, not trying to be negative, just working out the problem for myself). If you can share the track plan even a sketch with rough lengths it would be really useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 This all also depends on where your layout is in terms of shade, the problem may be lesser if your layout sits in the shade for most of the day, where the bed may only be likley to reach 20C, but if its getting more than a few hours of summer sun on dark plastic it may heat to temperatures beyond the outdoor air temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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