drmalesis Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 cleanerg6e said: Hi Duncan, I read on the Hornby website that they intend to bring out Dent Station in the Skaledale range this year so you may be able to buy that waiting room I'm keeping a lookout for that one Roy. I did have a bid on a couple on eBay, but when the prices approached £20.00 each I gave up. Considering the original retail was about £15.00, I've decided to wait for one at the right price... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted July 26, 2011 Author Share Posted July 26, 2011 Hi everyone, Well after several weeks of planning and work to clear a working area for the railway, I've finally made a start. Nothing too ambitious, but I have managed to get 3 posts in the ground. Nothing worth taking a photo of, but it's a start. The posts are 1.2 metres apart (center to center) and should hopefully minimise any sagging in the 18mm ply. A 2400mm x 1200mm sheet will provide twelve 200mm x 1200mm lengths and keep the transportation and handling fairly simple. If sagging does occur, it will then be a simple task to install support in the middle. I've managed to get a couple of boxes of Peco Streamline "Code 100" track of eBay at a very good price, and I'm currently looking at point requirements. With an outdoor layout it's nice to have the option of using the larger points available to give a more prototypical look to the line. I'm still unsure about whether to opt for Insulfrog or Electrofrog as yet, but with a requirement for about 10 sets of points, I don't want to have to rely on the point blades to maintain electrical continuity and spend half of my life keeping them clean. So I'm strongly persuaded to use Electrofrog and modify them as per Peco's instructions to allow the polarity of the frog to be switched (for which I'll use Seep PM-4 motors). If anyone has some ideas here, now's the time to say. The only bad news is the closure of the local Focus DIY store. Although they didn't stock a wide choice of products, they were convenient (only 20 miles away), and did stock most of the stuff I need. The nearest large DIY retailers like B & Q, Wickes and Homebase are all in Shrewsbury, and thats a 100 mile round trip with my 8 x 4 trailer on the back. Either that or pay £55.00 for delivery from Wickes. The local builders merchants aren't the most helpfull of places and are very expensive and don't seem to be interested in anything less than bulk orders... Anyway, I'll get piccies posted as soon as I start to get the ply laid, and attempt to document the method behind the madness... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 HI Duncan, I've switched (no pun intended) from using electrofrog to Insufrog on my outdoor points. The main reason being that I have been able to use then without point motors in place and not have to worry about frog switching. I've made modular point motor boxes which can live outside and cope with the weather, or they can be stored in the shed and only put in place when needed. Sometimes I have a quick run out and don't bother putting the motors on the points and with insufrog I have don't have any problems with dead frogs. I think your heading for trouble by supporting your boards at the ends. The boards will sag. The ends of the boards will curl up just a little and will cause you all kinds of trouble. If you are supporting your boards at the end then you will have to brace then and make them very stiff to avoid this. You will be better off cantilevering your boards to balance out the weight of the boards and have the boards join half way between suports rather over them. Finally. 1200mm length board may be easier to transport and handle, but 2400mm long ones will make a much much better railway base board. The joins are the weak points and therefore you want as few of them as possible. Plus when you are having to cut them down in length, to make bend etc, you will have a lot less useless off cuts with longer boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 Hi Chris, Thanks for the heads up on the ply. I've been having a few thoughts about that anyway. I'd been thinking about a cantilever type of support for the middle and decided to run rails between each post and support the ply along its complete length. The curves will require some thought, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that problem. My points however are all concentrated in the "Station" area and will not require me to go and sort out derailments somewhere along the line. If your'e familiar with Garsdale / Hawes Junction Station then you'll get the picture of how the station trackwork will look. Of course I'm greatly simplifying the number of sidings, but I will be building in an option for a branch line similar to the old Hawes branch line. I'm still persuaded to go down the Electrofrog route, purely for long term reliability at the expense of short term effort required to wire them up. But I'm in no rush just yet. My main concerns at the moment are getting a good run of posts installed, topped of with ply and a decent length of track down to counter "I must have something to play with" blues... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingeekboy Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Wow your train room looks great! I wish I had an odd sloped space like that. I am wondering if maybe the beams will bow and warp. I do T shaped pieces with ply on top and a verticle beam underneath to prevent warping. You might want to consider having a vertical beam underneath the current ones. It would be somewhat like the engineered wood that people use in house construction. I can't wait to see more progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 traingeekboy said: Wow your train room looks great! I wish I had an odd sloped space like that. Hi, Welcome to the forum - sorry for the late reply, but I've been working odd shifts and only had time to quickly view the new posts. Even then I've missed loads and have just started to catch up. Yes it is a great site for an outdoor railway, but it's absolutely riddled with tree roots, making digging post holes a very time consuming business. I haven't taken any pictures yet of the latest work because 8 posts stuck in the ground doesn't make much of an interesting picture. However, I've been out today and purchased two 2240 x 1220 x 18mm WBP Plywood boards and had them cut into 200mm wide strips for the trackbed. They are curently under the wood shelter drying off from their sealing coat of bitument paint. (And yes Ian, just as you said - it's bloody messy stuff ). traingeekboy said: I am wondering if maybe the beams will bow and warp. I do T shaped pieces with ply on top and a verticle beam underneath to prevent warping. You might want to consider having a vertical beam underneath the current ones. It would be somewhat like the engineered wood that people use in house construction. Although I had considered using fencing rails, I've decided to have 18mm plywood cut into 100mm widths as the rails to support the track bed. My local supplier, can cut them dead straight on their large flatbed circular saw. With the trackbed on top, it will make an effective and very strong U channel that will keep the track bed as flat as possible. I'ts a Bank Holiday here in the UK tomorrow, but worst luck I'm working again. At least I'll be passing the plywood suppliers - so I'll have some support rails cut in my lunch break, and get them sealed ready for the weekend. Photo's to follow soon... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingeekboy Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Maybe you can attach posts the tree trunks sort of semi temporarily and just use trees as uprights? I use my metal fence posts to strap wood posts to in that way. The ply on the beam sounds like what I am doing moe or less. Can't wait to see more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 Well I've finally managed to get a little work done on the railway today, in as much as I've managed to fix 8 track bed support rails to the existing posts. The support rails are the same 18mm ply I'm using for the track bed, but as they are attached to the sides of the posts and will need to navigate curves, they are only 1220mm long (the distance between the post centres). I couldn't get the supplier to cut them to the required 100mm depth as his bench saw wasn't up to the job and I had to settle for a depth of 200mm. A little wasteful perhaps, but there's definately no chance of the track bed sagging... I did manage to temporarily lay 2 lengths of 18mm ply on top so that I could take some photos, but the rain promised for this afternoon appeared (almost to the minute it was forecast) and I had to quickly pack away and cover up. The next couple of days don't look promising on the weather front, but I'll take some photos as soon as I can so that you can see the techniques I'm using... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 If you cut your 200mm heights in half with a jigsaw each piece will still have one straight edge which will be the top edge and you don't need to worry about the bottom egde. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 chris said: If you cut your 200mm heights in half with a jigsaw each piece will still have one straight edge which will be the top edge and you don't need to worry about the bottom egde. Just a thought Hi Chris, I did consider it, but with all the delays and frustration due to the recent weather and my work patterns (it rains when I'm home and its dry when I'm at work... ), I was adamant that I would take advantage of the break in the weather and didn't want to waste any more time. I'm not too upset about the slight waste though and you'll see why in the photo's as soon as it's dry enough to venture up there. I have about 20 spare fencing rails (of the farming variety), that will run on top of the ply and under the track bed to help disguise it, strengthen the whole structure and help to rusticate it somewhat. The strengthing will be more important on the lower part of the slope where the track bed will be more or less chest height and the posts about four foot above the ground. This area is also where the tree roots will be the biggest problem and post spacing is likely to be less consistent. A little extra lateral support will be very usefull. Anyway, although I did have an overal design in mind, I'm being forced more than I really care too admit, to make a lot of it up as I go along due to the nature of the plot. A bit like building the real thing... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 It's much easier to get an overall view of how things will look once you've actually started the construction so I would expect there to be numerous changes to any earlier design as you go along. Your actual site for the layout is also different from the norm being at a distance from your home whereas I could sit there for hours on end gazing through the window just feet from the layout itself in order to determine what I wanted to do. I still changed my plans a number of times! I assume you read Roy's recent post regarding the demise of the Brambley Garden Railway and the reason for its demise being the bad weather (did he state rain?) Being from a similar part of the UK what are your thoughts? Was the weather something you had considered and is the amount of rain likely to pose frequent problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 mick said: I assume you read Roy's recent post regarding the demise of the Brambley Garden Railway and the reason for its demise being the bad weather (did he state rain?) Being from a similar part of the UK what are your thoughts? Was the weather something you had considered and is the amount of rain likely to pose frequent problems? Yes I did see the post. It was sad to hear of the demise of the Brambley Garden Railway, it was one of my favourites due to the huge length it covered. But I think its size was as much a part of its down fall as the weather. Maintenance must have been a huge task. They always say it rains in Wales, and I guess we do get more of the wet stuff than some parts of the UK, but thats due to the westerly location and the proximity of the mountains. The same can be said for the Lake District etc. I don't mind in the least getting wet, and I'm sure that once the work is complete I'll have just as many play days as the rest of us. But as you yourself have found, working on wet ground is no fun, and if you add a slope into the equation, it can get a little hair raising. My biggest problem (besides the rotten weather) is a lack of a level work area near to the layout. However, with 4.8 metres of completed track bed soon to be available, it's as big and as flat an area as I need, and work should become a lot easier. I noticed that "traingeekboy" was also a fan of Jules Garden Railway. I keep going back to his videos as he has a layout that is full of interesting ideas and is built with the minimum of materials. He seems to have just used plywood and creosote for the track bed and supporting structures, and doesn't seem to have many problems at all. What is more encouraging though is that he seems to be quite happy to play trains whatever the weather - all he does is give the stock a good dry and service when he's finished. It's amazing really that his videos manage to disguise the fact that the layout is only approximately 15ft square. So no - the weather won't bother me when it's finished and I can play trains, but it's having a damn good go at stopping me reaching that goal in the first place... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingeekboy Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hey Duncan, I do, or is it did?, like Brambly railway. I wonder what specifically did not work out on his layout as it seemed he had some sort of cover material over the platoforms. I suppose the size of it would be a huge chore even with track cleaning. I often think that when I see huge home layouts in magazines. I was working on my layout last night and my girlfriend commented on how large my layout is. I had to agree that I doubt I will need more than what I have. It should be plenty to keep the trains rolling. I also plan to grow lots of vines up it next spring so it gets some nice greenery, something that is more difficult in my climate. Jules layout is very charming. I didn't realize it was only 15x15 it looks bigger in the videos. I like how he doesn't even bother to scenic much. He just runs loads of trains and it looks fun! I tried to find creosote here in the US but I think it is restricted to industrial applications due to it being a carcinogen. I've taken to sealing the edges of my ply with black spray paint. I am still not sure what to do on the top side of it. I will be curious to see how you deal with moisture on your layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 traingeekboy said: Jules layout is very charming. I didn't realize it was only 15x15 it looks bigger in the videos. I like how he doesn't even bother to scenic much. He just runs loads of trains and it looks fun! I tried to find creosote here in the US but I think it is restricted to industrial applications due to it being a carcinogen. I've taken to sealing the edges of my ply with black spray paint. I am still not sure what to do on the top side of it. Yes, he made a comment about the size on one of his early videos. I thinks it's more like 20ft square myself, but hey it's his layout and he should know. They stopped selling real creosote in the UK in 2003, and it was damn good stuff. Contractors and tradesmen can still get hold of it, but it's illegall to pass on to members of the public. You can get Creosote Substitute in this country, but only thing it has in common with real Creosote is the smell. It needs to be re-applied every year, whereas the real thing would last several years before a re-application was required. If I could get my hands on the real thing, I wouldn't hesitate for a second. traingeekboy said: I will be curious to see how you deal with moisture on your layout. No secrets here. I had intended to use the method used by Ian and Chris on the KWR and Amblethorpe layouts. I even went out a bought a couple of tins of bitument paint. However, the height of the track bed in places is going to make the application of roofing felt very difficult, and I don't want to spoil a nice flat track bed with a poorly applied covering. I'm currently using the bitument paint to seal and coat the supporting rails. Ian mentioned that in hindsight he wished he'd used masonry paint on the KWR. Roy has used a similar type of acrylic paint on the High Level Railway, and I'm inclined to do the same and finish it off with some kind of ballasting at a later date. The great thing with acrylic based masonry paints is that the primer, undercoat and topcoat can be applied all on the same day. Bitument paint although touch dry in 2 -4 hours neads 24hrs to dry before you can re-coat... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Having gone down the bitumen route, I'm going to try out masonry paint on Phase 3. Not really looked into it. Will I need specific primer, and undercoat paint or will multiple coats of the masonry paint do the job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanerg6e Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I only said that the Bramley Garden Railway had ceased to run on the fact that the bloke 'Craig Owen' said that the railway had now come inside. It didn't mean that a shed had been built for the railway to run into or through just simply an indoor layout had been constructed instead. It is such a pity as it had a glorious long run and his track building was first class. My railway although long does not take up all of my back yard (as it's called here) and I still have more than enough room for a double carport beside my garage. The main reason being I have practically no front yard since the widening of the main road I live on. Oddly enough the road widening scheme is still going on further up the road from me and the local people have not gone in for underground power as I was on the road last week ( for work) and the latest part of the widening scheme has now got two rows of wooden power poles, one old and one new. I insisted on underground power as when ever there was an accident on the road someone usually took out a power pole and in the summer with no air conditioning or power for 15 hours we use to bake in 40 degrees + heat with the authorities saying ' it'll be back on soon'. Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 chris said: Having gone down the bitumen route, I'm going to try out masonry paint on Phase 3. Not really looked into it. Will I need specific primer, and undercoat paint or will multiple coats of the masonry paint do the job? Hi Chris, I'm planning on using Dulux Weathershield. Basically you have 3 options with their paint. The smooth paint is available in either water or solvent based variants and has a 15 year guarantee if applied within their guidelines. The textured masonry paint only has a 10 year guarantee, but does provide a more pleasing finish. My local supplier can mix the paint to any colour from the available Weathershield colour chart and there are several suitable colours available. If the paint is used on masonry, you just thin the paint down to the required consistency to prime and seal the raw masonry. On wood however Dulux provide suitable primer and undercoat in their Weathershield wood range that you can use. I've used these paints exclusively on the exterior of the house including the plaster rendering and woodwork etc., and can testify to their quality. I easily managed to prime, undercoat and apply the gloss coat to the soffits & facia boards on the house in a single day, as you only have to wait 2 hours between coats. Beware though, this convienience and quality comes at a price - but as I'm not planning on using roofing felt and adhesisve, the price difference won't be much at all. Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Quote Having gone down the bitumen route, I'm going to try out masonry paint on Phase 3. Not really looked into it. Will I need specific primer, and undercoat paint or will multiple coats of the masonry paint do the job? I think if you are going to use masonry paint I would just use multiple coats of it without primer, maybe thinning the first coat with would be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 drmalesis said: I think if you are going to use masonry paint I would just use multiple coats of it without primer, maybe thinning the first coat with would be a good idea. Perhaps your'e right Ian - it would certainly keep the costs down... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmalesis Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 With all the recent activity and construction taking place I was determined not to be left behind and decided to brave the weather. The forecast was for a mainly dry day with occasional light showers. What we got was a mainly wet day with occasional periods when it didn't rain... Still, I did manage to install an extra 3 posts and do a "little" digging to clear the first curve. Anyway that was yesterday - today has been a lot better, and I've managed to get further support rails installed and the posts installed for the start of the first curve. The first image shows the state of play first thing yesterday morning. The rails are 18mm WBP Plywood sealed with a 5 to 1 mixture of Bitumen paint and white spirits followed by a further 2 coats of neat bitument paint. The next two images show the construction details of the support rails to show the general principles I'm using. With this method, I'm aiming to support the entire length of the track bed, and to minimise any undulations in the surface. The next two images show the temporary track bed laid out on top of the extra six support rails I managed to get installed to day and includes the start of the first curve. The total length of the first straight is 35 feet 6 inches, and the curve has a radius of 7 feet 8 inches. As the next couple of images show, the curve caused a lot more work than I originally intended. To get the size of the curve I really wanted I had to dig away a fair amount of soil. I managed to get this done yesterday in between the "light" showers of rain. It was at this point when I couldn't stand up straight in the mud that I called it a day. This is getting more like constructing a real railway every day, and "Network Rail" are no help at all... This image shows the blocks that I'm using to attach the track bed to the support rails. I bought a big plastic tub of them years ago, and I now finally have a use for them... On my last trip to B&Q in Shrewsbury, I managed to buy the masonry paint for the track bed. Although I originally intended to use Dulux Weathershield paint, they had a buy 3 get one free offer on the Sandtex range. With one eye very much on the budget, it was a bit of a no brainer really. I also purchased a sheet of 6mm WBP Plywood to use as the support rails on the curves. This thickness of ply bends beautifully around the curve, and still has the same load bearing strength of the 18mm ply... With most of the construction headaches and challenges now resolved in my own mind, it's just a case of getting out there when the weather allows and getting stuck in. The next few days will be a bit quiet on the construction front however as I have several other pressing jobs on the house to complete. Namely fitting a new door that actually fits to the basement, insulating the basement ceiling (it's directly under the living room, and a source of rising cold in the depths of winter), cut logs and split them ready for winter, dig up and store the last of the vegetables etc, etc, etc... Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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